Vendetta on the Vine.

Perrie:

I realize that this article may ruffle a few feathers ....

Other than the nice picture, Not Rilly. It's too vague for anyone not a principal to understand, so the opportunity for "introspection" is negligible there, and if one of the principals comes along and adds details, well, while the opportunity for introspection might be there, the practice of it in such circumstances is negligible.

So, first, a question:

Why would this be posted to the "rotten acorn" or "political analysis" or "successful solutions" or "journalism on newsvine" groups?

(I own the last group, and I'm definitely deleting your article from the group because it doesn't fit the rules of the group, which you might want to read.)

Groups are there to feature appropriate content, and they lose their usefulness if people just post anything to them, in order to gain exposure.

Second:

I realize that this article may ruffle a few feathers and maybe that isn't such a bad thing, if it leads to introspection.

Once upon a time, we'd have a meta blowup every four or five months. I always saw this as a good thing. 1) It compelled the staff to get involved. 2) Because of that, rules were clarified. 3) Issues tend to get resolved-ish, or, at least, a pressure valve is released until it builds up again.

Quite frankly, some of what we see today pales in comparison to the explosions we used to have. Truly epic fights.

But, yeah. I've definitely earned my enemies. In fact, that number has gone up dramatically, of late. (I'm well aware that a handful of people are actively telling people to put me on ignore, to contest my comments, etc.) but I don't really much care.

Most of those people won't be here long, anyway.

It's not whether or not they allow meta articles, it's more whether or not your article fits the basic description of the content that belongs in the group. This article has nothing to do with ACORN, so someone who follows the Rotten Acorn group will click through, thinking that there's a new article about ACORN, and find this there. The same is true of the political analysis group.

Someone brought it to my attention that you were being unfairly picked on, publicly, and without details given, it was just another example of what has been going on here lately.

I guess if I had expected anything else, I'd understand. I don't even really mind being picked on. Most of the people doing it are kind of cowardly about it, and don't even say my name when they do it. They just make vague accusations of impropriety, then a bunch of people come and agree with them, some of whom probably wouldn't if they knew the full story.

I hate passive aggressive complaining. Either say what you mean and who you mean it about, or don't say it at all. The reason "fights" go on so long is because people are so vague about what they're actually upset about and most of the people who are running around talking about "netcops" are primarily mad that they've gotten in trouble for something, and are bitter about it, so they pepper all of their comments with complaints about it.

But, again. I can handle it. Or outlast it. Either way.

Brian:

ARE you one of the principals? Don't want/need details, just a Yes or No to make a tangential point.

Perrie:

I hope that clarifies my point.

Again. Not rilly. Your article is vague, cryptic and inscrutable. It includes a public proclamation that you will not publicly proclaim the substantive dispute underlying the article, or those involved.

So why bother? Either it's another in a long and monotonous string of "Be nice to each other, people" articles, in which case, it's empty of content, or it's an expression of a specific, substantive dispute, in which case, readers can't judge the dispute unless they know what is.

Perrie:

Okay on the question to BF. I just was wondering about the the gender issue you implied above, which is why the article caught my eye and why I commented.

:^{)>

jfxgillis,

For the record, I advised Perrie NOT to mention the specific individual, or even to give enough details about the incident so that anyone would know which incident Perrie was referring to. I happened to be involved in the same incident. I think Perrie's article is good, because it make the point...

I think it's time to call an end to Vendetta on the Vine, and act like adults.

but tries to avoid extending the argument.

Perrie:

You want to know if it is anything to do with you, no it doesn't.

I knew that. I mean rilly. When I'm being assholy enough to provoke a meta article, I damn well know it.

:^{)>

and if one of the principals comes along and adds details,

Heh :-)

(I would imagine that in short order there may be more than one....)

Quite frankly, some of what we see today pales in comparison to the explosions we used to have. Truly epic fights.

Anyone remember.."The Prank"?

GD&R

GD&R

Since we're getting into "nostalgia" here. . .

GD&R = Grins, Ducks, and Runs.

MM:

I think it's time to call an end to Vendetta on the Vine, and act like adults.

Yawn. Can I add "eternal" to "long and monotonous" as I said above? Blah blah.

Now. There's one thing this article has that lots of such articles don't, and that makes it intriguing: The intimation of a gender distinction in the quality or quantity of Vine bad meta. That might be a useful line to explore (though possibly eruptive).

And there's something the article hasn't got that none of the rest of them got either, namely, a specific recommendation for a method to reduce such disputes and/or their effects.

I got one. The "Three Week" rule. Any meta grudge held for more than three weeks, regardless of the seriousness or justice of the preciptating event, automatically becomes the responsibility of the grudge-holder.

Jfxgillis,

Yawn. Can I add "eternal" to "long and monotonous" as I said above? Blah blah.

Sorry to burden you with such boredom.

Krishna,

I have no idea what you are talking about in either post.??????

I know

Here is one. Abuse of the Newsvine email is a violation. And when I say abuse, I mean anything that would be written there should follow the CoH, and not be used as a tool in a vendetta.

Wow. Eye opener number 1. My first month on the vine I received scathing e-mail from another viner. Name calling, threats, on and on. This was over a year ago and I believed it to be an isolated incident. I decided to change e-mail addresses and have made it a point to stay away from discussions with that person. See them around a lot and have not seen that side of them since. Thought it was a 'mood' thing and just decided to not to open myself up to it again. Like I said in my first post: Maybe I'm a bit obtuse.

Perrie, Re: Your email.

I didn't come after you. In fact, my last comment was about that group of people who are currently determined to pester me, and how they're going about it.

It wasn't until after I posted it that I realized it could seem to apply to this article, as well.

But, in general, and because I do think your article kind of fits what I was talking about, I think it's just best to be upfront about the situation and who is involved, or not write about it and deal with it as you can behind the scenes with the staff. Otherwise, you have a bunch of people thinking "gee, I wonder if I'm the person she's talking about" and before you know it, tons of people on Newsvine think they're the person that is vaguely under discussion. Or, a bunch of people agree that there's a problem, but everyone has a different person in mind concerning the "cause" of the problem.

For example, if PenniD and R. Donald Snyder used my name whenever they lodged their vague complaints about netcops abusing their authority, people may think differently about their comments than they do when they just mention "someone" doing it. Someone might call them on their claims, and they may, in turn, stop making them. But, it's much easier for them to earn sympathy by talking about a vague netcop, harassing them. Nothing could be farther from the truth, but they get a lot of "awww, I'm so sorry, how awful for you" type responses.

On the flip side, if it *were* true, and they would just say that it's me they're complaining about, and other people came in to say: "Yeah, that Brian Ford. I have evidence of him doing this, and this and this..." Something might get done. I'd get what was coming to me, the staff would step in, whatever.

(As always, I welcome the scrutiny.)

But, the fact is, what happened is much more boring. I pissed PenniD off, a long time ago, probably for reporting her for something, and when it turned out I was right, she decided that I was a netcop then and there, and that she'd never let me hear the end of it. No matter what I say or do, I'm wrong, at this point. Oh, and also, in case I had forgotten since the last time it was brought up, I'm on ignore. Comments which, made by any other person, would be no big deal are taken as attacks. And she's making sure to tell everyone within earshot that I'm abusive, that they don't have to listen to what I have to say about the CoH, etc.

So, joy of joy, I get people like the recently banned funstra showing up on a thread and giving me snarky hell for a comment which can, in no way, be considered offensive. It's sort of like a fan club, except they all despise me.

Meanwhile, she talks about how important the CoH is, in other arenas.

C'est la Vie, I guess.

Funnily enough, so many people love to praise the CoH, but I get more grief for mentioning it (whether it be due to Copyright Issues, Plagiarism, the Meta Policy, etc.) than I do for almost anything else. Often, I'll say something, and because a person doesn't like me, they'll actually tell someone that I just think "I own the place" and not to worry about what I have to say about the CoH. Yet, I'll see them on threads kissing Tyler's ass talking about how much they respect it.

Huh?

The thing with groups isn't a big deal. It's a pet-peeve of mine, it's something that the staff looks down upon, and I just in general noticed it so I thought I'd point it out. As much as I'd like to post some of my meta articles to random groups for exposure, I know I'm not supposed to, so I don't, and I hope I get whatever I can get. Still, a lot of group moderators are long-since gone, which means that if members don't complain about the issue, the groups will soon be cluttered with content having nothing to do with the intent of the group, and that's no good for anyone.

You can also set your e-mail alerts to be contacted by friends only, everyone, or no one.

Perrie:

That the grudge-holder suck it up. Nothing that ever happens on an internet forum can ever possibly be worthy of an endless feud.

If a dispute erupts, whoever carries it past three weeks is carrying it too far.

Now, about why I started off the way I did. Your article was so vague I was afraid it would just devolve into another into another string of repetitive platitudes if it didn't devolve into an entire thread of vague disputations as one of the other principals showed up and started being equally vague. Neither of which are good for the Vine.

On your e-mail thing, I agree and have a FLAT RULE never to carry the fight to e-mail.

:^{)>

On your e-mail thing, I agree and have a FLAT RULE never to carry the fight to e-mail.

Hrm. I dunno. That's easy enough to avoid. Don't respond to the email. Personally, if someone is unhappy with something I've done, I'd prefer that they spell it out in an email, and avoid destroying half the town as part of a public dispute that will likely just get worse and worse as various third parties chime in.

Wow. Eye opener number 1. My first month on the vine I received scathing e-mail from another viner. Name calling, threats, on and on.

I know about this. I was a target of two different person's vendetta over something I had posted. I reported both and both people were banned.

Many people have not yet learned that Brian has a particular way of looking at things. His perspective isn't always well received, but that's Brian.

There are so many personalities on the Vine and you have to learn how to respond accordingly. That's if you care enough to learn about those personalities. Some do, some don't. Brian is the type that says things one way and one way only.

So, that's how I approach Brian's personality.

Brian,

Your point in #1.28 is well made... vagueness can cause even more problems...

But I advised Perrieto BE VAGUE because I was afraid being explicit would re-enforce the undesirable behavior bringing even more agrivation and pain... So... What to do?

1. Be explicit and let the chips fall where they may, even if the pain of the experience is so great that reopening the wound may just bring more pain.
2. Be vague and risk spawning a bunch of erroneous assumptions.
3. Suck it up and find another way to vent your frustration.

But I advised Perrieto BE VAGUE because I was afraid being explicit would re-enforce the undesirable behavior bringing even more agrivation and pain... So... What to do?

Here's the thing, though. I presume the other person has their own side of this debate. Maybe I agree with that side? I don't know. I don't know what their side is. And, presumably, that person will eventually read this, and the cards will already be stacked against him/her because people will show up to agree with the only side of the story they have.

And, if anyone else knows who she's talking about, she gets to not use his/her name, but still make her case against him, for those who know what she's talking about. It's sort of win/win for Perrie and lose/lose for whoever she's talking about.

This is not meant to be a "win or lose" article, Brian. I think I know Perrie well enough to say that's not her intent at all. Like most of her articles, it's simply shining a light on a known issue and trying to have a reasonable discussion and hopefully find some common ground for improvement. I've never known Perrie to make anything personal.

When I first read it, I was sure she was thinking of an entirely different group of people who are going through a similar situation. "Who" is less relevant to me than "what"

I would lose interest pretty rapidly if this article just became a forum for each "side" to state their case. That's what happens on political articles, and you know as well as I the outcome of those debates.

State your opinion, by all means, but contribute solutions, too. I know you're capable of this, Brian. I read your stuff. Let's not allow this to become personal, hey?

State your opinion, by all means, but contribute solutions, too. I know you're capable of this, Brian. I read your stuff. Let's not allow this to become personal, hey?

I'm not making this a referendum on Perrie, or the other person involved. I've just been here a long time, I've seen how these things play out. I know how people react, and what the concerns become.

And, I'm saying that this sort of thing, the vague idea that some people do something wrong does tend to be part of the ongoing problem, or of keeping the problems ongoing, anyway.

I don't *want* it to be a win/lose situation. I want it to be a "win" situation, for everyone.

Which I think is the best way for this to be handled.

If you hit reply, you just give them your e-mail address and that is a bad move. Sure, they can use the contact feature here, but once they are banned, they can not contact you.

Mal,

But I advised Perrieto BE VAGUE because I was afraid being explicit would re-enforce the undesirable behavior bringing even more agrivation and pain... So... What to do?

Good advice if you ask me.

The situation is not described above and only reflects upon those who can see themselves in a possible situation.

That means everyone is addressed about something that effects everyone, instead of being one person attacked about a specific issue.

It keeps this to a minimum of possible escalation and further hurt feels.

Besides, by asking not to fight, it is offering an olive branch that neither reflects on that person or against the other person.

It is a call for a truce. BRAVO Perrie. You could have escalated it, but have refused to play a game.

I don't *want* it to be a win/lose situation. I want it to be a "win" situation, for everyone.

Yes, I think we all agree on that.

That the grudge-holder suck it up. Nothing that ever happens on an internet forum can ever possibly be worthy of an endless feud.

I totally agree.

And yet, there are still feuds here...that siimmer for months-- and every so often blow up...and then go back to "simmer" 'til the next time they blow...

And the mere fact, that Brain thought it might have to do with him, goes to show how pervasive a problem it is.

For what it's worth, I didn't think it was about me.

Like Jack, I tend to know who I've pissed off, at any given time.

Brian 1.32:

Personally, if someone is unhappy with something I've done, I'd prefer that they spell it out in an email,

Oh sheeeeesh. Like transfer a couple-of-hundred-post thread to a couple of hundred e-mails? No @!$%#ing way. And have it all circulating and semi-circulating clandestinely and surreptitiously underneath whatever the @!$%# is going on on the public thread? No @!$%#ing way. And trust anyone I'm meta-fighting with to keep in confidence anything said in confidence? No @!$%#ING way.

When I fight, I fight in the light of day. There's maybe a half-dozen users on the Vine I'd trust with a meta e-mail, and that would only be for gossip or agreeing. Anything even remotely confrontational goes on out front. Heck, even if I'm fighting with staff about something I put some comment in somewhere in public so my position is established in public.

Brian:

Like Jack, I tend to know who I've pissed off, at any given time.

Giggle. I know that you know that I know when I'm pissed off at you, but do you know that I know when you're pissed off at me?

Heck, even if I'm fighting with staff about something I put some comment in somewhere in public so my position is established in public.

This statement from jfxgillis and the vagueness of this article have brought me to the conclusion that my long held view that meta should be published to All of Newsvine is correct. All kinds of crap bubbling beneath the surface that should be nipped in the bud.

Just imagine where Newsvine would or could be today if the "Prank" had been hidden in some Group or behind the scenes. I can see myself still thinking that I had fallen amongst a group of perverts. Since in was done in the open it was concluded in the open the only lasting effect on me personally has been the retirement of some mighty good friends.

I know that you know that I know when I'm pissed off at you, but do you know that I know when you're pissed off at me?

I generally just start from the other end. Who isn't pissed at me?

It's quicker that way. I'm pleased to report that I may have more liberals than conservatives on edge, these days. Who says bipartisanship isn't possible?

The primary purpose of meta is to keep discussions about Newsvine off the front page. While I agree that these discussions need more visibility (maybe a button on the main toolbar), I think it perfectly reasonable for Newvine to decide that they want there front page to be about something other than Newsvine itself.

I think "The Prank" was before my time at Newsvine, but I must say all this talk about it has stirred my curiosity.

I generally just start from the other end. Who isn't pissed at me?

I'm still pissed at you. Its because of some argument we had here a long time ago. But now that I think about it-- I can't remember what is was you said that annoyed me-- or why I was angry at you.(All I can remember about it is that it was in a meta article..but I don't remember what we were actually arguing about)

So maybe I should take you off my "still pissed at" list. Holding a grudge against someone, as enjoyable as it may be-- does lose some entertainment value for me after I forget why I was angry in the first place-- maybe after so many months its time to apply jfxgillis' "three week rule" :)

In any case, I do believe that there should be at least a meta category on the top bar, so that you don't have to hunt these articles down and then people would publish meta article to groups where maybe they don't belong.

I don't get this. There are at least 5 groups where they belong, and those groups are all followed by a *ton* of people.

Also, anyone following the meta tag, or the newsvine tag, will also find the articles.

Well, there's:

Metavine
Newsvine Community
Newsvine Help

Off the top of my head.

But, again, with META, the most important thing is the tracker. I'm pretty sure I found the article because someone on my friend list, did.

Mal,

I think "The Prank" was before my time at Newsvine, but I must say all this talk about it has stirred my curiosity.

Me too!

It turned into a fight between two groups of people (with some "independents" occasionally adding their own "words of wisdom") ...but the thing I remember as really significant was the fact that many people who had grudges just refused to let them go...for such a long time. Talk about "vendettas"-- sheesh!

By holding on to their righteous feeling of having been wronged (and in some cases , if I remember corrrectly, a desire for revenge) not much was accomplished--- except to continue to anger many others here.

As I remeber-- the net result was lots of people hurt and angry-- buit nothing positive of any significance resulted

From Brian at #1.62

Who isn't pissed at me?

What day of the week is it? Let's see....it's Friday. Nope! It's not your turn, today.

I usually reserve Mondays for you.

*laughing* I guess this is why I tend to have a guy mind at times, even though I am female. I don't even bother with my email connected to the vine, and if I have an argument I hash it out on the vine (though keeping to the point of the seed) or just walk away and not even bother, but really don't hold animosity towards anyone here unless they just keep going and refuse to acknowledge they were wrong and then keep going after me in other seeds.

Oh well I just don't see the point in fighting through a computer.

I noticed that jsbach is no longer in blue, so I went to check her column, Susan is gone! This is not a good thing.

This is a deep wound, losing jsbach........

I look for spirit and courage on newsvine. I seek inspiration and determination. I love to roar, to soar, and to buckle at the feet of Angels. So few help me so much, and show me so much more, than jsbach. I am a lone wolf, no doubt, but I am hurting badly now....

This is sad for me, too, and I hope it's just a glitch. Did she say anything to anyone?

Susan has done this before. So, do not be discouraged by it. Hopefully, she will be back sooner then later.

Susan, I am truly grateful for you. Slay whatever demons you face, with a fearlessness and abandon that only fellow battle-worn demonslayers can truly admire and cheer, then return with tales of power!

Those of us who care about you, Susan, will wait until you decide you want to return.

Thanks, USAF, I didn't know. I am just feeling a bit guilty for the turmoil, and I hate for anyone to leave, as my motto is "the more the merrier."

Hi Perrie, yes Susan is gone. I am saddended by this event greatly. I commend you for this article, I want to thank Brian and Mal for their integrity and I totally get the point of what you are getting across Perrie. Been there done that. I respect that fact that you all leave "names" out of this and the subject, as it would and does perpetrate the situation further...I also know this as it happened once to me. Instead of me getting bent out of shape about it...I let it go..and I left too for a short time. Better to put an end to it then take side and start drama, which I despise and won't participate in. It's also good not to mention names as they are not there to defend themselves. There are a great many "mutual" friends here on NV, and it's uncomfortable to be placed in situations which almost force one to take sides...I can't or wont'. I will however, if given enough or all of the facts to make a decision or choice on someone for unnaceptable behavior will make my OWN desicion as to were they stand with me. I will not tolerate certain behaviors from anyone, wether it's done to me or not...if it's unnaceptable to me. It does't matter my relationship with them or the other person. Of course, I am pretty diplomatic and I don't will always try to throw something out there lighten an issue up...but sometimes there are times when it's a cut your losses situation. I have no fear of the delete button and have and will use it. Brian your straightforwardness is commendable, Mal your honestly and fairness is a strong character trait that you possess...and Perrie my dear, you are a very sharp young lady as well as a good friend with much to offer many here. I have enjoyed your friendship dearly.

Sometimes people like to talk just to hear their own voice....this in not attractive to me. I do not like "pissing" contest, I like good debate and the abiltity to agree to disagree...not get bent over it. Perrie, wish I had time to be here more to read more articles and participate....Now back to my calender if I ever plan on getting it posted...lol (Miss ya sweetie) Good job, hugs Hek:)

Hiya again my dear Perrie...I'm not going anywhere, ever. I have much to learn, say and well, just love all the fun I have here:) I miss you also, everyone, just been under the weather, working and I also went to Fla. for a week to visit my folks (and no, sadly didn't get up with Dkaz), now that would have been a hoot for sure...lol. I'm trying my best to get on here, but since we lost our internet at work....it's been hard to get on line even at home. I work nights as you may know and usually 5 nights a week, 12 hour shifts and sleep days. I'm only off tonight and tomorrow night...then back till Monday. Oh my. I do have a 12 day stretch coming up for Christmas..1st time in 14 years so I could stay home, cook, bake and spend it with my little family. My folks are coming this year since I have both my girls and my son-in-law with me...but go figure, they are going elsewhere for Christmas. But, I'm still going to bake plenty of cookies and breads...can't wait. I may throw a party for the Big Girls....whoot, whoot..I love to entertain...so I may do my annual party, I didn't have one last year.

Anyway, you have done a great job here, great people showing up and MAL...IF YOU READING, I would love it if you'd be on my 2010 Calender? Pretty Please...and anyone else who would like..men only though..(it's for us ladies)...hehehehe. Good to see everyone, it's going to take me awhile to finish reading this one....but I will. Love Hek )))))))HUGS((((((((

Perrie and All,

Susan asked me (and some others) to put up here goodbye article in her own words. I posted it the other night-it's on my column.

As you know, I recently went through a bit of the grinder on a story where all of us were having fun, then for better or for worse, I didn't realize I had gone 'over the line'. The author of that column, a longtime vine friend, obviously jumped on e-mail to all the other 'players' to complain and build a case. The worst part is, she didn't bother to just contact me and tell me, instead she wrote a piece that was rather, um, unflattering, I contacted her and apologized directly and apologized on her column. I also deleted a comment she found offensive on one of my articles and this offended her more-and I deleted all the remarks of that 'string'. A couple days after my last post on her column, she lambasted me, again, publicly, for which I apologized, fairly abjectly, again. Then she told me that my apology wasn't enough, that I still owed more apologies.

I appreciate you becoming involved in that particular scenario (not the one you based this article on), but once again, and I guess the point to my ramblings is, one e-mail would have been enough to stop all offense, but instead, the writer took a gang approach, instead of just saying, hey, you're out of bounds. I've lost friends and lines of communication are down between me and others now-the scorched earth approach doesn't seem like the right way to me, but I guess others think it is.

I think we need to understand that this is the vine, it's virtual and what people say on here is virtually always their opinion and theirs alone. There are lots of people I don't agree with and I'm sure there's lots that don't agree with me, but if we can't agree, we need to be mature enough to understand that no one agrees with everyone all the time.

Spikegary,

I have had similar experiences in my life. As I'm new to the vine, I've not (yet) inadvertently stepped on anyone's toes in this venue. But I find it baffling that there appear to be those who grab on to a resentment and nurture that seed until it's a full-blown weed with roots and stalks extending far, far beyond anything resembling sanity.

I once heard resentment is like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies. You made an error, you apologized for that error, thereby showing yourself to be sufficiently mature to do so.

But it does hurt when one acknowledges and assumes ownership of an honest error only to have the other person utilize that error, and subsequent acknowledgement of wrong-doing, ignored in favor of generating ill-will and a "vendetta."

Perrie has had the courage, as have those who have shared their painful experiences in this thread, to bring something into the light of healthy, constructive conversation.

You don't know me, but I would very much like to extend a friend request. I admire and wish to emulate those who choose the high road in contentious situations and would be honored if you'd consent to be one of my teachers.

Spikegary, I received NO EMAIL, NO PHONE- NOTHING! I just happened upon her article, as periodically I enjoy all the silliness and pranks she and other friends play on each other- and sometimes on me- and just enjoy a good giggle as much as the next boy knight, and happened upon the dialogue without prompt. I WAS NOT ALERTED TO IT! NO ONE TOLD ME TO INVOLVE MYSELF AND NO ONE EVER REQUIRED I TAKE SIDES!! If you ask all your friends, and even ask all MY friends, as well as my enemies, they will uniformly tell you I am completely uninterested in involving myself with on-line petty dramas and gamesmanship here, and they will also tell you that the harder folks have tried to incorporate me into their petty agendas and battles, the colder, more resistant and more distant I become to such games and politics. I choose my own battles!! I also choose my own friends!! The more you ask around, the more you will fully realize I truly am a disinterested lone wolf when it comes to juvenile group behaviors here. I've far greater interests and motivations, and life is far too short for me now to involve myself in high school type dramas and agendas. You've probably little real sense of it, and actually only 5 people on the vine have only about one-tenth of the sense of it, if that much, but lets just say that my choices for involvement on any particular article is informed by certain values, interests, desires, and motivations far removed from what we would call personal vendettas or a desire for revenge, or being a "player' in someone else's 'game'. Let me just say this is perfectly clearly- I got involved because of what I saw, and because of the kind of man I am! No one anymore even asks me to do something personal and vendetta-like for them on the vine- I am certain that even those who you would consider my closest friends here know I do only what my spirit compels me to, and if they care to, they would probably tell you I am an unconditional friend, and a tireless enemy, but above all, I am lone wolf, and I decide what is right for me- no one can pull me into an agenda that isn't just, isn't fair, isn't right, isn't consistent with my inspirations, and my heart! Yes, I am a very fierce friend to several here, and generally will defend them against any unfair treatment, but all of them know I call my own shots, and I was not ever asked to take sides either for or against you! I tell you again, to just ask any of those whom you feel are my closest friends here- I will always support my friends, and defend them against unfair treatment, but no one can tell me what I must do, nor how to do it!

As for you, Spikegary, NO ONE HAS EVER SENT ME EMAILS, NOR IN ANY PRIVATE WAY SAID ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT YOU- EVER!!! In fact, of all the private interactions I've had with others here, whenever your name came up, it was always very positively and warmly! You and I have many mutual friends, and you can easily figure out which ones would probably have interacted with both you and I off Newsvine- they never went behind your back to criticize you to me! Listen, I do my own thing. I use my own eyes. I trust my own heart! I like you alot, Spikegary. I like others alot here as well. If there is some kind of game going on against you, NO ONE ASKED ME TO BE A PART OF IT!!! I think you are a low-key, fun, good-natured, positive influence on the vine, Spikegary, and all I can figure is that an unforeseen train wreck slowly evolved on that article, and it sickened me once I came upon its aftermath, thus my actions. Again, I do my own thing! In fact, bad boy also caught some of my anger. No one asked me to go after bad boy. I am no one's attack dog! I fight when I choose to. bad boy will never be my friend on newsvine. You, on the other hand, I hope to keep as a friend here. Spikegary, you are widely admired and regarded pretty highly. Trust me, sometimes things are said that are unfortunate, and abberations. I made mistakes, and I am sure I will make more as time goes on. We live and learn. You have good character- please let it shine!

Worldknightboy - I have never ever seen you not to be anything but a GENTLEMAN....ALWAYS. You always have my upmost respect. And your a wonderful writer with much to say and a lot to offer NV and all of us here. You are a "role" model here, so is and was Susan and always will be. She set a strong precedence for character and integrity and was always consistant in that. That is why she is loved, valued and treasured. Her presence here will surely be missed by all, but I and othes have learned to aspire to be more like her so we will carry on with her in our hearts. Thank you for being you:) Hek

I'm sorry I brought that up...but she was in my heart and is I think an integral part of what this article is about. An example of what can happen on the vine when people are foolish with others emotions. So, I guess I once again agree with Perrie's post and the importance of Vendetta'a...there should never be any here...take them elsewhere would be my statement. Hek;( sad.

Wow, super wonderful- thanks, Hekofawoman! Yeah, I just wrote a comment about Jsbach over on Spikegary's column- her spirit seemed the closest, most similar to mine, of everyone else I've felt an interaction with so far on Newsvine. I'm going to back off my involvement and interaction on Newsvine- not end it, but just throttle down. I need to tune my spirit now, and find another path with heart. Hek, you have been such a playful and yet thoughtful delight- keep rockin' strong! Love, wkb.

WKB ,

Thanks for backing me up on that hezbollah seed .
The moderator and I are contacting the NV staff
about the problem . Is tyler the best person to send
an email to ?

Yes, Tyler is the perfect person to contact, nSZ! The Moderator also should take it upon himself to delete inflammatory and grossly off topic comments. Peace.

Hek is 100% on the mark!
I luv ya, Hek! Good to hear from you! :-)

Thanks WKB .

Peace out .

Hiya Lillth, lol, I don't know anything about being 100%, but you do know I always speak from my heart or my trash little peon mind....hehehehe (you know what I mean)...lovers you too kiddo, Hekkie:)

Hey Lillth, I have a big favor..I just posted an article asking a question about Vitamans...being your in the medical field, I would appreciate your input. I'm but a peon....lol.

Did it already! Check your column! =)

Accomplished, thank you Lillth, your input is important to me.

I have had similar experiences in my life. As I'm new to the vine, I've not (yet) inadvertently stepped on anyone's toes in this venue. But I find it baffling that there appear to be those who grab on to a resentment and nurture that seed until it's a full-blown weed with roots and stalks extending far, far beyond anything resembling sanity.

That has happened sometimes here-- some people just refuse to let go. (And worse still-- sometimes they recruit their friends-- there's an knock-down drag-out fight that goes on and on..).

Sometimes its a person who overly righteous-- and feels they must "improve" NV (but, of course, only the way they like...)

Perrie, to her great credit, is very good at nipping those attempts in the bud in her column! :-)

All hail Perrie!!!

All hail Perrie!!!

Ditto! :-)

on knees, waving hands in air...I blow a kiss your way Perrie.....here, here!

WKB,

You came in on the very end of that and were not part of that whole debacle. I have nothing but the utmost respect for you, my friend. Between this and jsbach's 'Sah-Wah-Di' article, I've been thinking about my actions and reactions on the vine. The guiding principle of Newsvine is 'Get Smarter Here'. I have, after this was all said and done, but there are ways to do things and then there are ways to do things when interracting with people on a personal level. When I have a problem with an individual, I will go to the individual (eventually) and work with them, even if it takes swallowing my pride to do it. It is who I am. In that case, I started taking hits from the outfield, instead of a direct contact from someone who I have considered a friend, more than a 'vine friend' for over a year. But, as I said, I learned from it, so all is not lost.

Perrie explained some of what went into her writing this (she interceded on that other thing) and I respect her for going out of her way to resolve this first and the fact that she is just giving an overall background on her travails shows real class, IMHO.

WKB-truly, you are my friend and I have no issues, whatsoever with you.

Gary.......Regarding Comment #1.86

I just don't know what to think about you any more. I thought you were a fun, righteous guy. I know you're not a dummy but apparently you do lack common sense and you have a bit of a problem with your ego being bruised. I'm guessing you've always been able to have your way and if someone dare to stop you, "watch out". Well, after reading your comment, your one and only comment within the boundry of 2 pages, I've learned you not only lack common sense but you are again, sounding like a bully and putting false accusations out publicly. You're trying to put me in a compromising position in public and it's just not going to work. Did you really think, knowing that I was on this article and that I was going to see your comment, that I wasn't going to respond to your comment? Gary I have backers and proof. So, without further delay let's get this party started.

Perrie and All........As you know....

Addressing your comment this way Gary, would make one think that "Perrie and All" know what you're talking about. Only about 3-5 people on here do. Maybe a couple more. I didn't count. But now, they're all going to know and they can all make their own conclusions. This is all thanks to you for not knowing how to keep the door closed when it was closed and locked weeks ago.

I recently went through a bit of the grinder on a story where all of us were having fun, then for better or for worse, I didn't realize I had gone 'over the line'.

And that's when I wrote Comment #292 on Page 12. [I'll try and put the link in and hope it works. But if nothing else, I hope it gets you to the right page.]

You then emailed me telling me you had a "weird vibe" that something might be wrong. It took 6 emails Gary to explain to you that you went from being fun and playful to down right indignant, insulting and disrespectful of me regardless of how many times I tried to stay away from you. My links as I go along will show just some of the comments you made that I pointed out in our email. And what was the last thing you said? "I'm so glad we're still friends because you know me better than anyone else on the Vine." Well Gary, no I guess I don't know you. I thought I did until the way you conducted yourself on my article and now here. Let's continue....

The author of that column, a longtime vine friend, obviously jumped on e-mail to all the other 'players' to complain and build a case.

Wrong. I got 10 emails from NV telling me 10 comments were deleted. All 10 were from your article about jokes. Remember Gary? That's when you made the comment "Dkaz, did you have Tom's meat, too?" Also, because a Viner and I were having a discussion about his comment which turned into nothing, you decided to "pull me back on topic". You can come into my article about hair and tell me you have "A-Rod" for me and other crass comments which I overlooked but I have to stay on topic in your articles? Yah, okay Gary. I forwarded the NV emails to Perrie, DragonWoman, Hekofawoman and Lilith asking them, "Do you think Gary's upset?" [I'm sorry ladies for name dropping but you're my proof and testament to Gary's behavior] I did that because I didn't know what I said wrong in your article and I was looking for a second opinion. I also sent them BEFORE finding out that you emailed other Viners. Imagine how pissed I was about that.

The worst part is, she didn't bother to just contact me and tell me...

I think 6 emails constitutes contacting someone.

instead she wrote a piece that was rather, um, unflattering,

First of all, I didn't write a "piece". I posted a comment. After our email session, I was under the assumption that you got the idea to back off. But apparently you didn't because either that evening or the next day I went into my article and was flabbergasted at the way you were bullying gpnavonod because the guy was coming to my defense for the way you were insulting me. He saw it and other people saw it but he was the one who stepped up to the plate. That was when I had had enough of you and told you so by posting Comment #290.7 on Page 12.

I contacted her and apologized directly and apologized on her column.

I don't remember you contacting me off the vine so if you say you did, I can't dispute it. You did apologize which I found farther down the article and also a second time even farther down than that. That's when I told you that you owed someone else an apology, which you never to this day, have been man enough to do and that was to gpnavonod.

I also deleted a comment she found offensive on one of my articles and this offended her more-and I deleted all the remarks of that 'string'.

This was the joke article and the deletions were on the advice of Perrie, not me. Perrie got caught up in this because of you and she tried to be the piece maker. But if anyone clicked onto the Comment # 290.7 I just linked and read more of the comments that were flying, they would see that I held no grudge or dislike towards you. I even tried to incorporate some humor to keep the article on the lighter side. It wasn't until I pointed out to Perrie, that outside of the article you were telling others that you "had her", that she then understood why I made the comment that I did. Gary, when you're bantering with people, you do it with them. You don't go into other articles and say something crass about a person when they're not there to defend themselves, whether it's through friendly bantering or not.

A couple days after my last post on her column, she lambasted me, again, publicly, for which I apologized, fairly abjectly, again. Then she told me that my apology wasn't enough, that I still owed more apologies.

Wrong Gary. Your timing is way off. Go back and look at the comments on the article. Look at the dates and times. Plus I only made one major comment. The next time I commented, I accepted your apology and told you that you still owed an apology to another person and that you can do what you want about that, to which you did nothing.

and I guess the point to my ramblings is, one e-mail would have been enough to stop all offense, but instead, the writer took a gang approach, instead of just saying, hey, you're out of bounds.

Ramblings? No Gary, you're not rambling. You're sulking because your ego has been hurt and how dare me to be the one to do it after months of being insulted by you. Not only by being followed from article to article but also finding you insulting me on articles I hadn't been on yet. You're right. One email would have been enough, but with you it took 6. And what gang approach did I take? I mentioned in a comment somewhere in here that I say what I have to say and that's it. I don't need any gang to back me up. If you or anyone else says something to me that I don't like, I'm going to tell you flat out. And not in an email. Then I'll get on with my life. Unless you persist, which is what you're doing here. If you insult me in public, I've got big shoulders Gary. I can take a lot. But when it continues and you haven't gotten the message through my cool replies to you than you're getting insulted back....in public.

I've lost friends and lines of communication are down between me and others now-the scorched earth approach doesn't seem like the right way to me, but I guess others think it is.

You've lost friends and lines of communication are down? What do you have a graph showing your lines of communication? No offense Gary, but this sounds dumb. The "Scorched earth approach"? I've never heard that term before but......okay, whatever. I just call it slapping some sense into someone who's so big-headed that it's okay for them to say what they want but heaven forbid anyone dare to make a critical reply back. If you've lost friends, well Gary that's your doings, not mine or anyone elses. Why don't you email them one by one and ask them why they're not your friend anymore? You're a big shot with NV, Gary. I can't agree with you losing friends but if you say it's so....then so be it.

I think we need to understand that this is the vine, it's virtual and what people say on here is virtually always their opinion and theirs alone. There are lots of people I don't agree with and I'm sure there's lots that don't agree with me, but if we can't agree, we need to be mature enough to understand that no one agrees with everyone all the time.

And might I add that most of us like to have fun and we should be mature enough and have enough common sense to know where the line is that shouldn't be crossed. If a person doesn't know that line, then they don't know the rules and they have no business playing the game.

Let me put a question to you Gary, and you alone.....

If a hooker is on the streets looking to make money for what ever reason, does she deserve to be raped?

I rest my case and hope the links work.

Well, one of my links I screwed up on.

That was when I had had enough of you and told you so by posting Comment #290.7 on Page 12.

This is the correct link.........I hope. Sorry, I just learned how to do this today.

Go back and check your dates and times. Very simply put, once again, a simple e-mail at the beginning of this problem would have ended the problem. Instead, a whole group of people were involved. It's not an ego thing, it is most cetainly a friendship thing.

This is all past history, you have your right to feel however you want about it, as do I. This is how I feel-accept that or don't, your call. As I've said, I've learned some things, so in the long run, maybe I've been able to 'Get Smarter Here' though only time will tell.

Something else to consider is where does your character stop and the real you start? My virtual play character stops on the computer, I have my own identity in real life and the two are seperate and distinct.

But, this conversation ends now, as this is Perrie's article, not mine.

Gary,

Very simply put, once again, a simple e-mail at the beginning of this problem would have ended the problem.

Had I known you couldn't read between the lines, had I known you couldn't see my responses toward your comments getting cooler and cooler and had I known you were going to continue your innuendos in other articles, I would have emailed you. But in the beginning, it was all in fun. You were the one who kept the "Kentucky" story going instead of putting it to rest. I continued on, rolling my eyes all the while because I considered you a friend. That's where I made my error. You were the one who had the problem with me bantering with other men in the story lines on my article, that I ended up deleting because of you. I can copy and paste where you told me that you and I were going to eventually "get it on" together when I chose Agent 57 and gpnavonod to play with and not you. Again, your ego was bruised.

This is all past history...

Is it, Gary? Is that why you posted your comment? If it was past history, the pages of the book would have been left closed. You opened it. Close it Gary, now, and keep it closed. Because the more pages you open publicly, the more I'm going to open. It's almost as tho you have now turned your sexual desires into a vengeful desire. It's time for you to stop and desist.

Something else to consider is where does your character stop and the real you start?

"dkaz" is a goofy broad who makes goofy comments when the timing is right. It's in my bio. It's been there since 6/2008.

The "real me" starts when someone gets way out of line and starts a confrontation because they seem to have a problem with me.

My virtual play character stops on the computer, I have my own identity in real life and the two are seperate and distinct.

Does it Gary? That's not what I saw.....offline.

But, this conversation ends now

I agree. NOW this conversation ends.

Btw, do you still have my home phone number? Do me a favor. Call me. Which is what you should have done in the first place. We could have settled this over the phone. And don't worry about Magoo. He's privy to all of this. I want this article turned back over to Perrie. I don't think she appreciated you airing your dirty laundry here.

Thank you Perrie, Dkaz, and Spikegary. The Vine is huge, healthy, and growing more every day. Each of us has our respected place here, among the branches, in the sunshine, flowering, and radiating our unique leafs. I value my experiences here, and I certainly value my friendships here. The promise of a better future here is abundantly clear, and shared by all who have integrity, honor and courage. The time of vendettas here has passed. Peace, all.

wkb,

Sooo....the pre-nup. Is it still on?

dkaz, how could it possibly be otherwise?! Um, maybe I forgot to mention it earlier, but..... how do you feel about being a sailor....our own catamaran...... free to go wherever the winds and the oceans take us? Maybe once in awhile having to wash the bilges, and scraping the keel......but otherwise, are you up for the bounding main?

I don't go out much. Whittled my family down to 2 brothers from 7 siblings. I have one good friend I keep at a distance. Newsvine is my social outlet. I've had enough real pain. In over a year I have lost two NV friends, women with whom I shared a deep connection, who touched my soul. I have been very cautious. No one has my phone number or real name. No one will call me to defend or support them. I am not accessible.

You folks don't know how fortunate you are to have emails and phone numbers and friends and enemies. I have a screen and a keyboard and a fearful heart. Let it go. Let it go. Let it go.

wkb,

Um, maybe I forgot to mention it earlier, but..... how do you feel about being a sailor....our own catamaran......

Well, my ex and I had a 22 ft. day sailer. For 10 years I tried to make myself enjoy sailing for his sake. We sailed all the Great Lakes, numerous inland lakes in Michigan and the Gulf of Mexico. The Gulf we rented a catamaran. So one can't say I didn't give it a try.

Having said that, if sailing is that important to you then.....

A-You're going alone or with someone else or......

B-You're going alone.

So.....is the pre-nup off or are there other options?

SW,

Let it go. Let it go. Let it go.

Are you trying to say this?

Close, dkaz. I'm not ready to let my good weather go yet. It's mid 60s and sunny. You can have the snow if you want it. :-)

Having said that, if sailing is that important to you then.....

A-You're going alone or with someone else or......

B-You're going alone.

So.....is the pre-nup off or are there other options?

I can see now that I would only make you unhappy, and that would just be unbearable for me. I'm sorry, but my life, my love and my lady is the sea. Still, if you should ever fancy high adventure on the raging seas, you will always be welcome to come sail away with me. There's nothing like seeing the southern cross for the first time, and its not far down to paradise.......

SW,

You can have the snow if you want it. :-)

Nope! I lived 37 years in Michigan, 2 years in Oregon, 13 years in Buffalo [need I say more when mentioning that city] and now it's been 6 years in Florida. Never to see snow again.

If family or friends graduate, get married, have babies or die, there's a real nice Floral Shop not too far from me that serves me well. Oh! And I have a slew of "all occasion" cards just waiting to be sent out.

But thank you for the offer.

wkb,

You goof! My names not.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-tRXewCAmU

And maybe one day we'll meet in.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubGDkaUlYUo

But until then........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKPoHgKcqag

It is always best to let sleeping dogs lay.

I thought he was a cat!

(Maybe he came out of the closet and his true identity, Clark Kent-like-- was revealed-- an actual dog! :)

And well now indeed I am learning there are some that have just a hard pressing need to attack people in seeds.

Been subject to that just recently with two different people. One of which cannot admit fault when it is pointed out crystal clear to them

the other searches me out to just literally do nothing more than to personally attack me disregarding the point of the article and in fact making on reference to the article.

And fancy that the latter won't bother putting me on ignore because they want to continue going after me.

Hey, Kshark, You and I went around a couple times and I almost put you on ignore. But I didn't. Just figured one or both of us were having a bad day. To chase someone through articles is a bit crazy. If someone is seeking you out, you need to put him/her on ignore and if it gets worse, report to Newsvine.

But until then........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKPoHgKcqag

Wow, and to think I was merely hoping to get next to you! Golly, you're making me addicted, dkaz! Simply so beautiful to me! XXOO!!

But until then........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKPoHgKcqag

Wow, and to think I was merely hoping to get next to you! Golly, you're making me addicted, dkaz! Simply so beautiful to me! XXOO!!

Perrie, I have little self control and not much memory. There are some on permanent ignore. Some I open their comments to see if they have changed. Some who are new to the vine do not realize we have a COH. I have about 50 on ignore and need to clean up the list. It's not difference of opinion, it's hate and intollerance.

I think that the ignore function is so stupid. I mean really, you know that anyone on ignore, can still be read. It's like you a person doesn't have self control.

Actually it may have the opposite of the desired effect-- if a person has only limited time to read the comments in a thread-- the natural instinct is to be curious about what was collapsed-- and head right to the comments to see what they said! (Sort of like a sign that says "Wet Paint'-- what's the first thing some peopel do when they see that? :)

It is actually a red flag screaming "READ ME! READ ME!" Quite a few on the more politically sensitive items have been collapsed not because of offensive material but for contradicting the political mores of the majority. This mainly occurs in Grandly Opinionated Pea-brained environments.

Perrie, you couldn't have put it more eloquently. It's a risk we all take when posting live to God knows how many people, from all walks of life and we all must take it with a grain of salt at times. You are a very diplomatic and sensible jounalist with an openmind, fair and firm...I like your style. Oh, and it doesn't hurt that you have an incrediable sence of humor....Hek:)

yeah, everything Hek said, and cute, too.

It is actually a red flag screaming "READ ME! READ ME!" Quite a few on the more politically sensitive items have been collapsed not because of offensive material but for contradicting the political mores of the majority. This mainly occurs in Grandly Opinionated Pea-brained environments.

Very often it is a minority opinion-- the "gang" in the majority manages to give each others comments maybe 7 or 8 votes each-- and tyhen collapses a comment they disagree with-- that coment getting maybe 1 or 2 votes.

What is sort of fascinating, though, is when there are many partisans from both sides of the argument present. I have seen situations like that where a comment is collapsed (meaning that a fair number of people don't like it)-- but the collapsed comment has maybe 10 or even 12 votes!

What does this mean? That there are a large number of people there who feel strongly about it-- some postively, some negatively!

The more interesting observation is how many people don't belong to either side.

My thoughts exactly.

Stay out of my head, Perrie

if you found the bubblewrap you're in the wrong place. Turn left and head toward the other ear. That's where all the really interesting stuff is

Vendetta on the vine....I bet many of you know what I am talking about. It is when a dispute is played out on the vine, and then the vine becomes an instrument by which one viner gets even with another.

Well, the discussion seems ot be more or less played out in this column-- but the issues haven't been resolved, and of course vendettas are still being played out.

And so-- I recently came another discussion, where these issues are currently being discussed. If anyone is interested, it is here:

Does anyone else think the Code of Honor, in whole and/or in part, as well as selective parts of the User Agreement's Conduct Policy section, need to be amended?

Thank you, Perrie. You are most warmly and sincerely invited to contribute over there. I feel like a lost kindergarten student over there, without the benefit of cookies and milk, and everyone knows you are far better suited to do the necessary guiding and teaching on that whole crucial subject I'm haphazardly shepherding along. Please, please, please- very genuinely- drop by over there, and do what you do better than anyone else on Newsvine- bring your unrivaled fairness and decency where it will do the most good! Plus, please ask all your very wonderful friends to join in over there as well- I know I somehow disappointed you along the way, clearly at times I've regularly been confrontational and inflammatory despite your regular cautions to me (folks don't know this, but Perrie has tried to smooth me out and keep me positively and appropriately engaged here on Newsvine, in our emails and phone calls together over the months. Sorry that I have turned out to be such an incorrigible case, Perrie. You have always been so decent, sensible and mature. I simply am a warrior at heart, alas) and it seems maybe your friends might have picked up on some way I might have taken you for granted, and didn't support you enough along the way somewhere, but still there is a moment developing over there that simply has to be seized! Perrie, Shakespeare must have had you in mind when he wrote this:

Brutus:
There is a tide in the affairs of men.
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
On such a full sea are we now afloat,
And we must take the current when it serves,
Or lose our ventures.

(Julius Caesar Act 4, scene 3)

Perrie, Oh captain! My Captain! See us through this ocean of turmoil, and guide our dear vessel "Newsvine" as it navigates uncharted waters. Your crew will not mutiny!